Mickey (00:00)
All right. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Mickey. I’m the host of Beyond Page One. I’m looking forward to our guests today. We have Sandra. She’s the co-founder and managing partner at Diamond and Diamond Personal Injury Law. She does a lot of areas of practice from anywhere from car accidents, slips, falls, brain injuries, and work-related. I can keep going on and on. Some other facts that are interesting about Sandra are that I found some media appearances. She’s recognized as a prominent legal commentator with appearances on media outlets such as CTV, City News, CP24, and Global News. She has a ton of community involvement from anything from the Easter Seals, Ontario, Child Life, Lifelines, and Victim Services Toronto. Sandra, you do it all.
Sandra Zisckind (00:45)
Yeah, that’s me. I just do everything. That’s right.
Mickey (00:48)
How the hell do you find the time to do all of it?
Sandra Zisckind (00:50)
I have no idea.
Mickey (00:53)
There’s something cool I found about you you worked with our late Senator John McCain. Tell me about how that experience shaped your decision to pursue a career in law.
Sandra Zisckind (00:56)
Yes. So when I was working for the senator, I was doing a master of law at George Washington University, and I was doing it in international and comparative law. And I think somewhere in the back of my head, I thought I was going to be Amal Clooney and go to like the Hague or something. And soon to find out that I wasn’t Amal Clooney. But I was doing international law. Like it was me and a bunch of guys from NATO, like that were being shipped out to go give them advice on the ground on which weapons to use in the war. Yeah, it was crazy. And then I was working for Senator John McCain sort of in between. So I thought I would go into the sort of politics. Politics has always interested me, this sort of stream. And obviously, I had the utmost respect for McCain, so working for him was just an honor and a pleasure.
Mickey (01:51)
That’s cool. So basically what you’re telling me is to not get on your bad side because you know some people.
Sandra Zisckind (01:56)
That’s how I start every conversation because I want to set the tone. I want to make sure that people understand what we’re doing here because I don’t want there to be any miscommunication later on. Right, exactly.
Mickey (02:07)
You’ve built a successful legal career while remaining deeply committed to the community service that you’re a part of. What initially sparked your passion for advocating for those who have been injured?
Sandra Zisckind (02:18)
So I think I was always like the person who wanted to advocate for the little guy. That was always my thing. And when I started off working, I started on the insurance defense side and I found that I was extremely successful on the insurance defense side, but it wasn’t as fulfilling for me. Once I moved over to the plaintiff’s side, I knew right away this was where I needed to be and this was what I needed to be doing. I always liked a good underdog. I’m just one of those people and I always liked fighting for the underdog, so it just, all made sense for me in my career trajectory.
Mickey (02:46)
That’s awesome. So that transition from the insurance defense to co-founding your firm is a pretty bold move. So walk us through the key factors that kind of led you to take that entrepreneurial leap.
Sandra Zisckind (02:57)
So at the time, you know, at the time I was dating my now ex-husband who I still work with but we’re good and we were sort of thinking about what to do with our lives. And you know, we kind of said like nobody is doing this big mass marketing campaign in Canada and how do we do that? His uncles were looking to retire and get out. They had a great name, Diamond and Diamond. You can’t get better than that.
So I contacted some firms in the US and I said to them, look, we’re not your competition. We just want to learn. We sat down with some firms in the US and I just took in all the information I could, listened to everybody, and then came up, slowly, slowly we started with this mass marketing campaign on how to do a direct consumer advocacy. And it just honestly, it’s sometimes more dumb luck than genius. It just blew up beyond any that we could have ever expected it to until we created the largest personnel firm in Canada. It’s insane looking back. There would have been no way for me to have known it would have ended up where it is today.
Mickey (04:04)
That’s so cool. How big is your firm?
Sandra Zisckind (04:07)
We have over 65 lawyers and probably over 250 staff. So well within the realms, we’re the same size as maybe a midtown corporate law firm, but that’s unheard of for personal injury. Personal injury firms had historically been five lawyers, two lawyers, six lawyers. It’s sort of in that range. You know, if you’re big, it would be 10 or 15. That was like sort of a big law firm. But by opening across provincially and opening up all the offices all over, it’s allowed us to grow.
Mickey (04:40)
Nice. And what provinces are you currently in?
Sandra Zisckind (04:42)
BC, Alberta, Ontario, and that’s it. We’re probably going to be on the East Coast sometime soon, but unfortunately, Quebec Saskatchewan, and Manitoba all have public systems, so it’s just not feasible for us to be there.
Mickey (04:56)
Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Very cool. So having experience in both the insurance company and then now the plaintiff and personal injury cases, gives you a unique perspective, right? So how would you say that shaped your approach to advocating for those who have been injured? Because you’ve seen both sides of the coin.
Sandra Zisckind (05:08)
Yeah, so I started to understand very early on, that it’s more about the story and the person than it is about anything else. And that’s how you kind of can differentiate. And this something I try to teach my lawyers is that when you’re working for the defense side, it’s insurance. And oftentimes, insurance is correct in the law. And the law might be correct and it might be what’s right at the time. But then you have a really good set of facts and good people that you’re advocating for. And judges are just human beings that want to do the right thing.
When I was doing the insurance side, it was just, this is the law, this is what the law says, we have to follow it. And once you move to the plaintiff’s side, you realize it’s about the person. And that becomes the most important thing is their story and who they are. So that was sort of the mind shift that I had to have. And it was easy for me because that’s where my comfort level is. But, you know, that’s oftentimes the discussion I have to have with young lawyers coming to the firm.
Mickey (06:09)
Very cool. You touched a little bit on the growth side of it and the marketing side of it. Can you share some of the strategies that you used to build such a strong and successful team? Because you went from a single office to a kind of national presence.
Sandra Zisckind (06:21)
Yeah, you know, sheer stupidity and the youth, the naivete of youth is probably the best. You know, we were starting, it was a lot of trial and error. I’ve never done a marketing degree, I’ve never done anything, but I feel like I’m a grounded person and I understand what the average individual understands. And we took a lot of risks.
Listen, any business you start, whether it’s law and the business is law, you need to take risks, calculated risks, and that’s the scary part. I would say back in 2015, and 2016, when we were taking a lot of risks, that’s when I didn’t sleep at night. Those are the times when I did not sleep when we were so far in debt when the banks were looking at me like you’re nuts and you’re just like, do I do this, do I do this? And that’s sort of where I think differentiates the people that become uber successful and the people that don’t is the risk factor and I’m telling you not everyone has the stomach and if I had to do it today at Well, you know, I’m 47, but we won’t tell anyone at 47 years old We’ll keep that on the down low Nobody’s watching this is fine. It’s all good So if I had to do it today, it’d be harder for me with two kids and a mortgage like it would be harder for me to do it back then we just doubled down. And 2016 was a pivotal year. We were being sort of attacked by our competitors and the newspaper and the law society. And we had a choice to make at that point. Do we retreat or do we double down? And I remember at the time I said, I looked at my partner’s and I said, we’re doubling down. We’re going to go into debt. We’re going to do it. I don’t care. We wrapped every single bus. We took over every single board board and we sacrificed a lot and then it paid off. Now, I guess it could have not paid off, but it’s just those sorts of decisions you make at the time. With a little stupidity and a little bit of, I knew we had something, we just had to believe in ourselves.
Mickey (08:20)
Yeah, it sounds like there’s a lot of tenacity. I like it. Some of you are there. That’s awesome. What, strategies do you use to differentiate yourself when attracting new clients?
Sandra Zisckind (08:22)
So I think when we started, we were trying to circumvent a lot of the nonsense that was going on with like the tow truck drivers trying to poach clients, the doctors in the hospitals trying to poach clients, the nurses, and they were all in the ear of the patients. And we knew this dirty underside to the business and it’s been around for a very, very long time, so we were trying to go direct to consumers. So in the beginning it was just informational, like how do we get the information out?
And then what happened was we got so big and so large that we had to take a step back and I remember we did a, like one of those, what’s it called, when you have people watch your commercials and kind of give you feedback, like a focus group. And then they’re like, well now you’re so big, are you gonna pay attention to us? So it’s just constantly shifting. You’ve gotta be able to take the temperature of the public, because, in the beginning, it was like we were their firm.
Mickey (09:12)
Okay, yeah.
Sandra Zisckind (09:24)
And then I think for a while they felt maybe we were too big for them. So it’s just sort of coming back to our roots of like, no, no, we’re the people’s law firm. We’re here for you. And trying to keep, we use all sorts of tools to just try to keep a gauge on what’s going on and how people are perceiving us.
Mickey (09:38)
Yeah, it sounds from my experience and you know, from, I talk to business owners all day, every day. it’s building out processes that are, you know, I say they’re really good essentially, right? And bringing in lawyers and educating them on the process that you’ve built so that there is no squeaky wheel, so to speak, right?
Sandra Zisckind (09:59)
Well, the processes, so that part of the operational is really where I excel even the most because that’s my favorite thing to do is to put operations in place and then re-operate. You’re right though, you put people into positions where you put faith in them and these are people that came up with me from the trenches. So there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t even need to look at because I know so and so is handling it. I know this person’s handling it. And then by the sort of, creating these sorts of pyramids of, people just taking initiative and I always promote from within. People have been with me for a long time, people have shown loyalty and let them take the lead and give them that, which allows those processes to work. Giving faith in your people, and allowing your people to take over, lets the processes work. On the marketing side, it’s just about, everything’s about listening and not letting your ego get in the way of things. So even on the process side or the marketing side, I would say one thing I think, and I’m going to say it as a woman, I think it’s easier for me. I don’t let my ego get involved in any decision or anything. So if somebody says there’s a better way to skin the cat, I’m listening to that person. I don’t care who they are. They started with me two days ago, if they’ve been with me for two years. If they’ve got a suggestion, I’m listening to them. I’m not taking it all the time, but I’m listening.
Mickey (11:12)
Yeah, you’re telling me males have an ego?
Sandra Zisckind (11:14)
No, never.
Mickey (11:19)
Personal injury is constantly evolving. How do you stay on the forefront of legal developments and ensure your clients are getting the best possible representation?
Sandra Zisckind (11:27)
So that’s a great question. So there are twofold. One, we do internal weekly meetings within the firm where we share information on my floors because we’re so big. We do an internal weekly meeting, Zoom meeting, where we talk about new developments, new things, and problems people have encountered. And then if somebody had a success or a failure, we’re discussing it at that meeting to learn from. You’ve got to learn from the failures as much as from the positives.
Mickey (11:38)
Yeah.
Sandra Zisckind (11:51)
And then on the other hand with new burgeoning areas, which is something that I take an active role in, I’m constantly going to the US and going to conventions and trying to understand what’s the next big thing. Because I think evolving is what keeps you going. I think when you stay still and think, you know, no, I got this, that’s when you start to die.
Mickey (12:12)
Yeah, I like that implementation of those meetings because it’s, you know, my grandfather used to tell me this. He said, like regular people learn from their mistakes. Stupid people never learn from their mistakes, but really smart people learn from other people’s mistakes. Right.
Sandra Zisckind (12:22)
Right.
Correct, and that’s exactly my thinking. It’s let’s just share. We’re enough people that we can share. And then even within the WhatsApp chat that we have amongst the lawyers, if there’s a problem or an issue, they’re putting it in the chat and everyone’s weighing in on it. So you have 10 heads instead of one. It’s really helpful.
Mickey (12:32)
Yeah, it seems, sounds very collaborative. That’s good approach. I like it. Negotiation is a crucial skill in personal injury law, in most things in life, truly. Share some effective negotiating tactics that you’ve developed throughout your career.
Sandra Zisckind (12:54)
Well, I’ll tell you one thing. When I started when I was younger, I was given horrible advice. They told me, you’re a woman, so make sure you go in there and be like a bat out of hell and like be, you know, vocal and yelling and strong. And I don’t know why I was given that advice and I listened to it at the time. So I was like so overly aggressive and so, I would yell and scream. I would get so worked up. And the only thing that did was hurt me and hurt my position. I think it took away from my credibility. It didn’t help with it. I think now as I’ve gotten older and wiser, I think negotiated, yes, at 35, we’re gonna go back. We’re gonna start going backward in this podcast. By the time we’re done, I’ll be back in law school. So I think what happens is just, negotiation’s all about taking a position and sticking with your position in a way that you can maintain it and make sense, right? It’s all about common sense and common sense approaches. It’s not about yelling and screaming and it’s not who’s going to pound their fist on the table the most. It’s about who’s going to say, look, it’s almost a game of chicken. So you have to be able to say, look, this is my position. I can take it all the way. I don’t care. I was in a negotiation today where I said to them, you can’t threaten me with going to trial as if that’s going to hurt me because I don’t care.
I’ll go to trial, I’ll take it, even if we lose, we lose. We’re so big, it doesn’t make a difference anymore. So once you can come to that point where you can put the stick in the sand and say, this is our position, that’s usually how you bluff people out and get their best position. But you have to come from that position of like, look, we don’t care, we’re not scared. And I think that’s where they try to find your vulnerability, where you’re scared, where you’re gonna retreat. Negotiation is always the best when you know you have the power behind you and you have the stress behind you.
Mickey (14:44)
All said. Your robust legal career and community engagement involvement, require an impressive amount of time management skills. How do you prioritize these different aspects of your life? How do you do it?
Sandra Zisckind (14:55)
Correct. I live and die by my schedule. So everything has to be in my schedule. Everything. Like if I have to go grocery shopping it has to be in my schedule because I have to plan out everything. And listen, I’ll tell you something. It’s going back to where we talked about processes. I have great people that I trust. I have heads of departments that have been with me for 10, 15 years and I can trust them wholeheartedly. So knowing that gives you more time and time is a commodity, right? For example, today is my daughter’s PD day, so I’m working from home. Knowing that I don’t need to physically be in the office, I can do this from my house and that the office will be fine because I have enough people t, re, Putting the right people in place makes all the difference in the world.
Mickey (15:49)
I want to inspire some of the young lawyers that might be listening. So many of them dream of starting their firms. What advice would you give to those who are aspiring to follow a similar career path?
Sandra Zisckind (15:53)
So, look, what I would tell them to do, what I never understand what the young lawyers do is they try to copy what we do or they try to go after us. It’s silly. Don’t go after the lion. It’s really, it doesn’t make sense. You’re not going to outspend me. So unless you’re going to outspend me, there’s no real point. I would say to them, come up with a niche that I’m not smart enough to have thought of. Come up with some sort of business.
You know, as I think about it, I have friends in the US who started a niche of parasailing accidents. I mean, it doesn’t fit for Canada, but she started this niche thing and she became the go-to person on pale and parasailing accidents. And they made a fortune, such a successful career from parasailing accidents. Who knew there were so many parasailing accidents? But it’s something that, for example, I would have never thought of or looked at. So you don’t want to, you don’t want to go down the pathway where you’re just doing.
Mickey (16:48)
interesting.
Sandra Zisckind (16:57)
You know, as you know, pay-per-click, all of these sorts of marketing tools become more expensive as more people get into the realm. So rather than competing on a large scale and just putting up like your small buckets, small drops into a bucket, use it someplace where I’ve never been. Come up with your concept, come up with your idea grow it, and take the risk. And listen, the smartest advice I’ve ever gotten when I was growing my business, and I’ll tell this to all you people, it was from my father. And, you know, I didn’t buy a new house until four years ago. Four years ago. I stayed in the same house the whole time. Because the house won’t get me the business, the business will get me the house. So it’s not important to invest in yourself and the nonsense, extraneous things. Invest in your business. Put all the money back in, even if you’re in debt, even if anything else.
The flashy cars, the big house, it doesn’t matter. It will come as time goes on. And that’s what we did for a long, long time. All of us were in a tremendous amount of debt, a scary amount of debt. But we worked really, really hard and we didn’t make, and every penny we had, we’d just put it back in, put it back in. And there was a long time when our lawyers were making way more money than us. I remember sitting with the accountant and he said, you know your lawyers are doing better than you, you understand us. And we said, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. But there was a game plan, right? And we just invested, invested, invested. So invest in yourself. Those are my words of words of encouragement.
Mickey (18:25)
That’s awesome. Very cool. It takes a special kind of person to do that though because a lot of people will get caught up and then say, I’m running a successful business. I’m going to cut myself a large check. I want to get that new car. I want to buy that cottage or the house.
Sandra Zisckind (18:38)
Right, and this generation, God bless you all, there’s that instant satisfaction tool because you have everything instantly. You don’t have to wait for anything. Everything comes to you instantly. Instant fame on social media, instant everything. To build something worth it, it takes time and it takes energy and it takes persistence. And you know, sometimes, like I remember when we were moving our first office, I was schlepping the boxes with everybody else. Like, If we could save money on movers, I would schlep the boxes. I remember like today, we were literally, there were five or six of us moving boxes. You do what you need to do. Wherever you can cut costs, whatever you need to do. There’s no pride, there’s no ego. You do what you need to do so that the business can move forward. And don’t look at the other stuff. It will come. It will all come.
Mickey (19:25)
It’s a generational issue and I blame social media. That’s not what we’re here to talk about. What are some of the bigger upcoming trends that you see impacting the future of your personal life?
Sandra Zisckind (19:28)
So I think as we go along, I think mass torts are going to be a much more prevalent thing we see in society. So not even class actions, but mass torts where a product comes out that’s essentially defective and affects each person a different way. Roundup is a really good example of that. Roundup was the chemical weed killer that came to pass. We’ve done it as a mass tort because the type of cancer it caused and the damage it causes to each plaintiff has been so particularized.
So I think we have about two or 300 cases just on that. I think that’s going to essentially be the future is people not necessarily class action. And that’s the trend by the way we see in the US. The US has moved to a very mass toward heavy system where these things come out and they deal with it individually, but in mass.
Mickey (20:22)
Okay. Interesting. Winning cases is important. How do you define success in your work beyond achieving favorable results for your clients?
Sandra Zisckind (20:33)
That’s a good one. That’s a really good question. So I think for us, it’s not only it’s the clients if we can do a good job for our clients if we put a few wins at our belt, but even the losses sometimes can be wins because sometimes we’ll take a risk on a case that might not go our way. And we’re telling the insurance companies, A, we’re going, we’re going, we’re not scared to go. B, we’re telling our clients we’re not scared to gamble them and we make sure that nobody’s adversely affected. We make sure that they’re okay. And I think all in all, that the client’s walking away happy, that my staff is happy, that people are happy to go to work the next day, and that we’re happy, right? I mean, I think as much as I can, the atmosphere is never going to be 100%. It’s never going to be perfect, but we try our best to gauge everything from all ends. Sometimes we’re better, sometimes we’re worse.
Mickey (21:28)
Awesome. Throughout your career, you’ve handled undoubtedly many complex cases. Can you share one or a handful of cases that have particularly stood out to you or that have been particularly rewarding?
Sandra Zisckind (21:42)
Yeah, there were so many, but there was one case I will always remember. It was a family from Chad, which was a very poor family, and they sent over their father. The fathers came to work from Chad, and the family was like a nomadic tribe back home in Chad. And I remember this like today. One of the gentlemen driving the car veered off into the other lane, and the car exploded, and everyone died.
So obviously the family back home in Chad wanted to sue for damages. These were their income earners. They were sending money back home. They didn’t have insurance. So this is one of those where I tell you the law was not on our side. There was no insurance on the car. It was a tough case. So the car that they hit brought security for cross-motion against them in Chad. This was one of those where, I just remember getting up in front of the judge saying, you have a choice here. You can shut this down and this poor family in Chad gets nothing. Or we can move forward and see if there’s even a 1 % liability. So, you know, I’m dripping sweat because I’m thinking to myself, this poor family in Chad, their whole livelihood is dependent on this one motion because it’s going to shut it down in two seconds.
Mickey (22:49)
Yeah.
Sandra Zisckind (22:53)
But I didn’t do it more than what we said, like just common sense, talking to the judge saying, look, I know the law is not super favorable for my situation, but these are very poor people. They deserve their day in court. And we won, I won that case. And I remember afterward, the lawyer was, you know, we’re gonna win and whatever. And we settled the case and I got the money back home. But I’m telling you the night before and the day after, so I probably lost 15 pounds because it was all riding on me. And, but those sort of wins that you can do and you can just come and pull them out. And they settled with me the day after the motion. Once we succeeded in the motion, they settled with me for the policy limits, which was great. And everyone was happy. So it’s those sort of things where you just are like everything that relies on you and you have to just be super quick, super on your feet.
But yeah, listen, those cases are the ones that take your heart out and make you lose weight and you’re sweating and crying quietly in the bathroom, always in the bathroom, never in public, quietly in the bathroom, and then hoping that the judge will do the right thing.
Mickey (23:59)
Wow, what a cool story. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. One of the last questions that I have, is this world, the technology that we have, it’s moving so quickly. Artificial intelligence is impacting many industries, mine like crazy. How do you see AI potentially influencing the practice of personal injury law?
Sandra Zisckind (24:00)
I’m hoping it will influence it in a great way. I feel like legal technology is 100 years behind. I feel like one of my constant frustrations as a managing partner is trying to find some new software and new ideas that are going to save time and energy. I’m excited for AI to come in and do a lot of the stuff that we can automate. At the end of the day, I still think, especially for personal injury, including that last case I told you about, an AI person can’t do what I just did.
Sandra Zisckind (24:45)
Right, so I think there’s always gonna be room for lawyers, and there’s always gonna be room for good lawyers and creative lawyers. But to get the processes, some of the processes are so stupid. Like when we write for clinical notes and records, that should all be AI. Like really, that should be AI doing it. There shouldn’t be a person writing, attaching a check, or sending it out. That’s such a stupid process. It is a stupid process. So if we can get those processes condensed and make them more efficient, I’m all for it. And I don’t think we should look at it as a threat, it’s an inevitability, much like everything we have to evolve. And I don’t think it’s ever going to replace lawyers if that’s the concern. But we do have to get better and smarter, and lawyers have to get better and smarter because the future is going to minimize a lot of the stuff we do, and that’s just a reality of life. For example, real estate law is one where I think AI will become very prevalent and take over a lot of what lawyers do.
So we’re just gonna have to get smarter and better and evolve.
Mickey (25:43)
Awesome. Anything that without sharing your secrets, all of them, because we don’t.
Sandra Zisckind (25:47)
I’m telling you everything. That’s it, everything, everything. I’m gonna give you everything.
Mickey (25:51)
You’ve grown a very successful business. Any marketing tips or anything that you’ve done that you’ve seen works well. And I know it’s probably changed 10 times over. Changes every year. Yeah.
Sandra Zisckind (26:01)
It has. Yeah, it has. That’s my, that’s my, I would say just keep it consistent for the most part, but we have changed it many times. Be imaginative, think outside the box. I mean, some of my best campaigns were things that I just came up with. Like we had a campaign we just did, which was super successful, which was, and again, because I’m evolving, I’m doing things more on social media now, right? Because that’s where your generation does everything. I just did a campaign and my kids were in the campaign where it was like one of my daughters sat there and said she was negotiating her bedtime with her mother and then she called in her lawyer from Diamond and Diamond to negotiate the bedtime and that went viral and that was great, right? It’s just, it was really funny and then we had one where like the guy’s breaking up with the girl and she’s like, wait, let me just talk to my lawyer.
Mickey (26:52)
I think I lost you for a second.
Sandra Zisckind (26:56)
Anyways, so I think it’s just, again, it’s the evolution, being weary of what’s going on around you and don’t stay in one place too long. Like, you know, in my, when I started it was just commercials, commercials, commercials, commercials. Now I don’t think that’s the case anymore and even me, I’m spending a lot of my time doing these silly videos or coming up with these concepts. I just did one, for example, which I think is hilarious, which was Gen Z versus Gen X lawyers. So it was me in the intake saying, you know, we’re gonna do a real good job. And this also went viral on social media and my Gen Z lawyer said, what’s up dog? You Scorpio? I’m a Scorpio.
Mickey (27:37)
That’s so fun. That’s awesome. That’s very cool. Cool. Okay. I’m out of questions. Sandra, thank you so much for taking the time today. I appreciate it.
Sandra Zisckind (27:48)
Thank you, sorry. Seems the kids ruined everything. They ruined that last little part too, I apologize, but you know, that’s what they’re for.
Mickey (27:53)
No, no, that’s completely okay. I’m gonna ask you to stick around after this. Just to quickly have a closing call or a closing chat with me, but for all our listeners, will be Sandra’s LinkedIn, and any social media information is gonna be linked in the podcast below. So feel free to follow and keep along for those funny commercials and everything going on in her life. Thank you everyone.
Sandra Zisckind (28:00)
Thank you.
