Mickey (00:00)
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Mickey. I’m your host of Beyond Page One podcast. Today’s guest is Aaron Savage. I’m pleased to have him here. Aaron is a partner at Cox and Palmer. He’s got 16 years of experience specializing in corporate and commercial law. He holds a degree in an MBA from the University of New Brunswick. He’s built an impressive career, including owning Savage properties. Additionally, Aaron shares his expertise as an instructor at the University of New Brunswick. He’s teaching corporate law.
and governance. We’re really in for a treat today. I’m excited to dive into his wealth of knowledge and insights. Aaron, welcome. How are you today?
Aaron (00:48)
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Mickey. It’s a real pleasure to be here and hopefully I hopefully we’ll get it right for you and I can share some insights that are helpful for your audience.
Mickey (00:57)
I think you’re going to deliver today.
Aaron (00:58)
Looking forward to it. Looking forward to it.
Mickey (01:00)
What, give our audience a little bit of understanding, what initially sparked your passion for law?
Aaron (01:07)
Yeah, well, think most young lawyers, know, like we, or individuals will always say, your parents came back at some level and said, hey, you’re always arguing, you’re going to make a good lawyer. And I, that was no exception in my household, but you know, that’s, that’s what I say to my kids today. They argue over everything, but you know, I think you hear it subconsciously over, over an extended period of time. And I think something does sink in. But I mean, look beyond that.
You know, I think you have this idea that what do you want to do is you get out of high school and what are the things that are going to work for me? Law was always in the background. You know, I think it’s one of those things that you sort of look at and say, okay, is that, is that real? Is it for me? So I went, I did an arts degree, right? So I went and did arts, I studied psychology, philosophy. And during that period of time, I was, you you think, well, can I really go to law school? Are my grades good enough? But look, I had some excellent professors at the university level that were very encouraging.
that said, yeah, you can absolutely do this. Your grades are great, go for it. And I guess it’s that belief, you know, I think when you, at that time, I’m certainly not, I don’t pretend to be an academic, I’m still not today, but you know, I think it’s a belief that you can do it. And that’s something I always had in my household growing up was just this belief. then so it’s, you you’ve got to understand that you can do it. And then I think you’ve got to have people around you that are supportive.
And then I think you have to some role models to work off of. And I had some good ones, you know, growing up. And if I’m being brutally honest, I saw some people around me that were lawyers as a young man and they looked, they had a nice life. drove nice cars and they seemed to have it together. At least that’s the impression I was given. Funny story or not, because I just did an exercise with one of the young students who was coming in. I co-opted him. He’s in our office right now. And I asked him,
I said, I want him to write a letter. This is two days ago. He wrote this letter for me and I said, I want to know what you hope to accomplish, why you want to be a lawyer and where you see yourself in 10 years. And it was very similar what he wrote. read it and he said, you know, I see a lot of lawyers, you know, and they seem to have their life together. So it looks like a pretty good path. so I think that’s part of it is having good people around you.
Mickey (03:20)
Well said. When you were early in your legal career, I’m sure there were some key challenges. How did you overcome them and how would you suggest young lawyers overcome these challenges?
Aaron (03:35)
Well, think everybody’s a Challenges don’t go away. Okay. That’s number one. They’re always there. I mean, look, and I, I’m the type of individual that somebody, you know, you’ve got to have a hill to climb. And if I don’t have that purpose, then look, it’s not necessarily interesting for me. But I think in the early days, look, what are the challenges? If I’m being brutally honest for me, it was fear. Okay. Like fear of failing, fear of not achieving your goals. And then obviously lack of money was a big one.
But you know, we spent the lack of money was, you you come out of school, look, and you’re basically broke. You’ve got a bit of debt to repay. You’re not earning big dollars. So you double down on the work. I went to work every day and enjoyed it. And that fear kept me motivated. But, know, you find time to do the simple things. You know, I think that’s, that’s in the early days. was, it was, you know, man, we, my wife and I, we weren’t married at the time, but you know, we, we run and we.
We were into photography and with mountain bike together and none of that stuff cost money, right? So we saved our money. We didn’t even go to Blockbuster. I’m dating myself now, but in my day, we had to go to Blockbuster. We went to the cheap convenience store and bought the 99 cent videos that barely worked half the time. So we saved a lot of money when we had a plan. think those are certainly the early…
early challenges that we faced. And I know that the young lawyers today are coming out and you know, their fear is probably more than I had, their debt burden is probably higher than I had. So how do you deal with that? You know, you’ve got to a good mentor, bottom line. So I think, you know, when you’re starting out and overcoming the initial challenges of getting into a firm, you’ve got to get into a firm doing work you like and that you’re good at, that’s important. Find a mentor that you can work with. And I don’t mean a mentorship that’s like, you know,
Maybe I’m getting off topic, but I think, you know, when think of mentors, too many firms, we check boxes. Okay. Go for lunch once a week or once a month, check a box, make sure they’re doing certain things. True mentors, somebody that’s not necessarily in your firm. mean, it’s somebody that that’s going to help you and guide you throughout your career. that was certainly one of my, one of the things that I did is I surrounded myself with really good people that were very supportive. And I think, and I still do, you know, so suggesting, um,
that we’re not going to have any challenges and that it’s going to be an easy ride. It’s not, you know, and I think if you know that going in, but arm yourself, weaponize those resources around you, which is your, you know, your mentorship, use your fear to your, to your advantage, you know, gets you out of bed every day, you know, enjoy the simple things because that’s, I don’t know, at least for me anyway, Mickey, that’s really what it’s all about is having fun along the way. And if you can do that, then you’re halfway there.
Mickey (06:24)
but then, yeah. You’ve been practicing law for 22 years now?
Aaron (06:29)
Yeah, it’s hard to believe 22 years it goes by. Yeah, so I was called to the, I graduated in 2001 and I was called to the bar in 2002. So yeah, 22 years.
Mickey (06:41)
there have there been a lot of changes that you’ve witnessed in the corporate and commercial law landscape during that time?
Aaron (06:47)
Oh God, yeah. yeah. mean, the legal environment’s changed, certainly, and the way we work has changed. think the biggest, certainly the biggest change that I’ve witnessed is obviously technology, right? I mean, that has changed everything. When I started, we were, I didn’t even have a cell phone when I We weren’t working remotely, we weren’t working from home, you were essentially chained to your desk. A corporate closing,
you know, 20 years ago was, was done in a boardroom with 80 seats around the table, documents everywhere. You know, it would take up weeks of time and we, the resources and time we were spending, you know, printing documents and making sure we had signatures and scanning them and copying them and then putting labels on everything. Most of that’s done today. We don’t do that anymore. So it’s very seldom that we do that. So certainly technology has absolutely changed everything.
to the point where, you know, we don’t even really meet with our clients face to face all that often anymore. Most of it’s done through teams like, you know, face to face over the internet and of course, DocuSign and the use of technology has changed. One of the things we do at the office is, I talk about a lot, anybody who knows me, so you’re gonna get it too, I guess today, is that I talk about the 80-20 principle, right?
I don’t know you’re familiar with that or if your listeners are, but the 80-20 principles sort of like doing more with less. It’s this idea that it’s an economic theory that, you know, focus on the top 20 % of your clients and they’ll deliver 80 % of your results. And I think you can generally apply that throughout your life. And I think the practice of law and the business of law, we’ve gotten there, you know, we’re doing the things we’re good at and using the technology. And by doing that, we can achieve essentially more with less, but that’s…
That’s evolution, you know, that’s how it goes. So, and it’ll continue on that path. But certainly technology has been the biggest change and it will continue to be that is my prediction for the next foreseeable future.
Mickey (08:54)
Yeah, I think that’s it’s industry wide, but it’s also just, you know, across the world in every sort of industry, right? Even in mine, it’s like half the time that I don’t even need humans anymore.
Aaron (09:04)
Yeah, yeah. mean, you’ve got to get your disposal and you know, it’s just a constantly shifting, shifting under us, right? So I think, but I mean, your business, my business, it probably doesn’t matter. You’ve to be on top of that, top of that. And if you’re not, you’re not, you know, you’re not going to be in trouble, right?
Mickey (09:21)
100%. You play a lot of different roles. Obviously you have the lawyer, entrepreneur, you’re a board member, all of which, all three of which I’m sure are demanding. How do you manage your time and prioritize effectively?
Aaron (09:37)
I don’t know that I do Mickey, so that’s thank you. I appreciate that, I don’t know that I do. Again, that’s one of those things, look, I am driving to that efficiency, constantly working at it, chasing that rabbit man. And I don’t know that I’ll ever catch it, but I really work at it a lot. And how you do it, I don’t know, but some of the things I’ve done over the years and I’ve, well, I’ll tell you, this is very recent by the way, so.
Like three or four days ago, I’ve been doing a deep dive into this, this idea, but I was at the gym, okay? So I’m at the gym and I watched this young lady and she was working out, but she was on her phone while she’s actually physically working out. I don’t mean like sitting there, which is one thing, but like physically on the phone. I thought, man, just be present, know, just be there.
And it got me thinking, thought, wow, that’s really the key, isn’t it? I think it’s just being present. And when I thought about that concept, I really realized that in order to do it, you’ve got to be ultra focused on what you’re doing at the moment, not distracted with extraneous factors. So if you’re at work, you get off that elevator, it’s show time. Don’t let the distractions in your personal life interfere. And just as when you get home at night, try to compartmentalize.
early in my career, had this idea that I didn’t, know, compartmentalization was a was a myth. You couldn’t do it. I recall being on. Oh, I mean, man, I, I was at Disney World. I remember this. I was at Disney World and I took a call waiting in line, you know, and I thought, man, I’m, I’m doing so great. I’m, I’m building and I’m at Disney, Disney with my kids and I’ll go to father and I thought, wow, looking back, think I
Why did I take that call? I can tell you who it was. I can tell you what it was about. It bothers me to this day. But I think it’s, you know, the key is I see it now is really just be present, be ultra focused, don’t waste time. I mean, it’s the only thing you’ve got. So when you’re at the office, I’m at the office from eight to six. That’s pretty much my routine. I don’t work a lot on weekends or evenings unless I absolutely have to. But look, when I’m at the office, there’s no wasting time. I barely take lunch. I eat at my desk.
If at all, you know, wasted meetings, you know, we don’t call meetings for the sake of meetings. We’re, really, really tight on our timelines. Then I think when you’re home, you’ve got to spend time with your family, of course. And then I’ve got my property business, my real estate business on the side, which takes up a lot of time. The real estate business for me, however, has been, you know, it doesn’t, I love it. So I think if you love what you’re doing, that’s kind of cliche. get it. But if you really enjoy what you’re doing, it’s not, it takes the work out of it. You know, like if you, you, you love what you’re doing and it’s.
you’re up and you’re energized. If you talk property with me, I’ll do that all day long and, and it energizes you. So I think it’s, I think it’s a combination of like being super efficient with your time using technology and say, and, know, I’ll be honest, say, learn how to say no. Right. So 80 20 principles stuff for me was critical. You know, I stumbled upon that when I was teaching and, and, you know, I think if you can eliminate the, the
the work or the factors that are dragging you down and really focus on the good stuff. Do the work you’re good at and the work you like. Man, you’re going to be, you’re going to produce, right? And have fun doing it. So it’s, it’s, it’s a bit of a magic. think it takes time to figure out and everybody has to look at it. But if you can read a lot, try different things, you know, every year, try to improve. So when I started this, know, when I mentioned I’m always trying to improve upon this every year.
We sit down with my team and say, okay, what did we do well? And that’s fine. I mean, we pat ourselves on the back a little bit, but almost immediately we’re saying, okay, how can we improve? What can we do better for next year? How can we be more efficient? The last thing I want to be is in the office at, you know, 10 o’clock at night for no reason. So by being efficient, gives us more time. And with more time, we can devote that to our families and our friends and our health and wellbeing.
Mickey (13:44)
100%. Well answered. You’ve authored several articles on illegal and business topics. What drives you to share your insights through?
Aaron (13:58)
writing. I mean, look, when I was in university, I said I did arts and I think those programs are great. They teach you to read and to write. And you realize through history and philosophy that I’ve always believed the pen is mightier than the sword truly is. And, know, maybe we can’t change the world every day, but we put something in writing. Maybe, maybe it’ll have a lasting effect. So that’s always been my underlying.
belief and I still believe it to this day. I enjoy the writing process, whether it’s in articles. You know, the first article I wrote was, or one of the first articles I wrote was, I attended a, it was a conference on, for, I think it was like people that work in the woods in the forestry sector. And it was attended and anyway, there was tax experts there and lawyers there and I was listening, presented this and I thought, man, this is terrible. These papers are terrible. I didn’t.
think they were well done. So I went out and I thought, well, I’ll just deliver the paper that I thought should have been delivered. And it was certainly well received. I think in the early days, it helped, it helps to put you on the map. I still believe that if you can write it and get your name out there, no better way to do it. Right. And in those days we, you know, we’re going back to 20 early, early 2000s. was legal journals. was.
you know, magazines or publications that were on point. So, you know, if you could get your name out there and show that you had some expertise, then that was excellent. I think more recently, you know, those journals have been really, they’ve been replaced with, my view, like social media, LinkedIn, and there’s so many opportunities to get message out in a direct way. I think it’s always been something I’ve enjoyed doing, but then selfishly, and perhaps it’s a great way to promote yourself, particularly in the early days.
you can write and be on topic. So for me that was always a motivating factor.
Mickey (15:53)
I’m going to pat you on the back a little bit right now. So you’ve been recognized by the Canadian Legal Expert Directory and the best lawyers in Canada. So significant achievement. What does that mean to you to be acknowledged in that way? And then, as a leading practitioner in field, how do these things motivate you to continue to excel?
Aaron (16:15)
Yeah, not at all, Mickey. Seriously, not at all. I mean, look, it’s nice and it’s great. don’t, I’m cynical by nature. So I think when anybody sort of slaps an award on you, you sort of think or designate, you know, or say here a recognition, you start, I’m like, okay, well, what’s in it for them? And, know, so no, but look, it doesn’t, you know, you don’t, don’t think anybody who receives those designations or those awards gets up every day and says, well, I’m going to, I’m going to be the great
the next great lawyer and I’m going to get this award. It’s not what motivates you at all. I think it’s certainly nice to receive them, certainly, and particularly the peer-reviewed awards are nice. I’m not going to lie, it’s nice to get, but I don’t think it motivates me. The things that I really enjoy that I think the recognition that honestly has been best for me was, well, the teaching award was nice. got a couple of years, I got…
the top teaching award at UMB. That was an important one. I felt really good about that. But I’ll be honest, the stuff that I like the most is when I get a client that writes to me and says, you know, man, thank you, great work, or I appreciate what you’ve done. Or sometimes I’ll do something for a family member and, you know, and they get back to us and just, you know, because look, the reason we exist, the reason I exist,
my team exists every day is to provide service to our clients. That’s it. To achieve, to assist them in their success, whatever that looks like for them. We want to be a part of that. It’s a thankless profession. You don’t get a lot of thanks. Nobody has a lot of sympathy for lawyers, nor should they. We don’t look for that.
You know, man, when I get a card or a nice letter from a client, I just love that. We, actually set them aside, set them aside, you know, and I have them in my office and we keep them in a folder and the members of my team, said, look, and it’s not just me, it’s to me, they’re, it’s representative of what we do as a group. And I said, look, you know, there’s going to be days when you sort of question, okay, what the heck are we doing here? And,
Should I just pack it up and go home? And look, everybody has that. We all have that. And I do that once in a while. I’ll do it for about two seconds and I slap myself and say, okay, stop this. It’s not productive. And if you need a reminder, open up the file and look at all the good things we’ve done. The people that value what we’ve done and value what we do every day. So I think those recognitions are really, really important. But look, not gonna lie, we like those recognitions. You grab them, put them on a shelf and move on.
Mickey (19:05)
That’s fair. But I appreciate that sentiment where it really comes down to who is it that you’re helping and that’s what you do. You’re here to help and you’re here to provide a service and when people give you feedback, that’s what matters.
Aaron (19:18)
That’s it. You know, I mean, that’s it. You know, we started a few years ago, we sat down and we thought about, and all law firms are a little bit different, but my approach is somewhat different, I suppose. it’s not, you know, he said, okay, well, what are we doing here? Well, we have 200 lawyers across the land of Canada and bright, shiny offices. You know, we’re great lawyers and you should give us a try. Okay, well, great.
You know, my view is no, it’s really the opposite of that. It’s, we’re here to service. We’re here to help you achieve that. We want to do it in a way that’s, you know, that’s respectful for the client and for us. We do it in a healthy, happy environment. We just happen to be great lawyers. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s that type of an approach. And I think if you can dial in and really zero in on that, it changes your perspective and you can come to work every day. And I still believe we’re doing great work.
As long as I do, I’ll continue doing this. But you’re right. That’s all we all… It’s no different to your business, right? I mean, you’re there to service your clients and…
Mickey (20:23)
It comes down to, know, in my world, it’s, you know, getting a call from a business that says, hey, you know, like we’ve had our busiest quarter ever. Thank you so much. You know, we were hiring, we’re building our team. That to me is like, hey, like, this is awesome. The day to day, it’s fine. Don’t get me wrong. It pays my bills and I’m happy about it. But it’s what I do for other people, really. That feeds me.
Aaron (20:50)
Yeah, that’s the best, isn’t it? And I think you hit it on the head. mean, the money part, I mean, okay, you know, everybody, if you’re centered on the money, no, that’s again, a bit cliche, but I really believe if you’re, if you’re just focused on the service and trying to achieve those top end results, the money is a secondary factor. It’s a, it’s it’s a byproduct of your, your efforts and your, and the service you provide, right? Yeah.
Mickey (21:14)
If there is a piece of advice that you would give to your younger self, what would it be?
Aaron (21:20)
Yeah, I just would have said it’s going to be okay. know, stop being. Don’t worry. Don’t worry so much. Honestly, you know, I can unpack that a little bit, but that was really it. I mean, I was a pretty intense guy in my early days and, you know, bundled up with all this fear and anxiety, uncertainty, not knowing what the future was going to look like. And I think we all have that to some degree, but, know, I think I would, I would definitely have said.
Mickey (21:24)
it
Aaron (21:49)
you it’s going to be okay. Just, just relax. And I, and then no one really told me that I think, you know, if you’re approaching it with a good work ethic and you show up every day and you’re being consistent, there was only one real outcome, you know, and all the fears that I had were unnecessary, unfounded. And I tell that to my young team and members of my team today. I just look at them and I see a lot of them and
I see a lot of me and them, guess we track similar to people and I tell them that all the time, you know, it’s going to be okay. Just, just relax. It’s enjoy the moment. It’s going to be over in like, before you know it, man. And it’s a short ride and enjoy every second and just, just relax. I think, I think that’s one of things I would have said, you know, when I, and I think of the, like you said, the time I, you know, you start this profession, you’re 25 years old.
I’m in my late 40s now and you sort of look at it and say, where did that go? then you think the next 20 years is going to go just as fast. Just enjoy it and enjoy the ride and try to meet and learn. It’s a wonderful profession and I think young lawyers today just have so much to be grateful for and to look forward to as they move down this path.
Mickey (23:08)
It always interests me. You mentioned earlier, you were talking about the girl at the gym, right? On her phone. And this might be a question on a left field because it’s actually not on here, but it’s something that’s just making me think about things. Is the generational differences between young lawyers now versus when you were coming out? Do you see a lot of differences of attitudes in a sense of delayed gratification or people that are looking to like,
They want to hit it big and they want to do it now and they don’t want to wait and they don’t necessarily have the backbone to put in the work. I find that my generation is very much like that oftentimes where they need instant gratification.
Aaron (23:50)
Yeah, yeah. mean, you know, hear that a lot, right? And, and, know, you can probably, every generation has a bit of that moving back. And, but definitely there’s generational gaps that occur here. And look, there’s a shortage of lawyers right now. make no question about it. There’s, there’s a shortage of lawyers. We can’t find them. And in large part, that’s maybe the cause. There’s, look, I think part of it, if you can, if you can get it right, I think lawyers will, will put in the work. And I think you can.
you can earn a profession. And I sort of look back and say, okay, what were the files and things that I really enjoyed doing? And it was, you know, work I was doing. Basically I felt respected in that I was in a place where they really respected what I was doing in my service. They respect, they value my contributions. Okay. And, and I think, if you’re felt, if you feel valued and by that, I mean, they’re billing you and then presumably they’re making some money on you.
But I think the third one is, you know, that you feel part of something. And if you feel part of something that’s bigger than you or that you’re contributing to a greater cause or that you’re on a team and you’re doing something special, man, young lawyers will work, you know? And so I think that’s incumbent upon us or me, you know, with my team to build that. And that’s one of the things that I’m trying to do. Look, so when I can create that environment, they will, the younger generation lawyers are working.
You know, they calm and they’re energized and the turnover is reduced. But I think young lawyers too today and young professionals and it’s the same in your business are also impatient. You know, they’re not, I don’t know if I can say this enough, but their bullshit meter is very low. Right. You know what I’m saying? So they’re not going to tolerate a lot of, they can go, they’re good options. They can go other places.
where they can be valued, respected, and be part of something. So you’re seeing that type of turnover. And I think the law historically has been a very long-term carrot. Look, they dangle the carrot out in front of You’d be a partner in 10 years, and then 10 years after that, you can do this, and you’ll make money in your 50s. Well, nobody wants that anymore, right? Yeah. Yeah, nobody’s really willing to put in that.
kind of time. So it’s incumbent upon the law firms to create those environments where young people can thrive and grow. And I think if you can do that, they’ll stay. But to your point, for young people today, there’s a great opportunity there because I do hear what you’re saying. A lot of people aren’t willing to put in the work. And I think there is some truth to that, right? You know, so for a young person coming out, man, put in the effort, put in the work, you can do a lot of damage.
Mickey (26:27)
Yeah.
Aaron (26:37)
Really, you know, you can you can have pretty much whatever you want if you’re willing to do it strategically, right?
Mickey (26:43)
Yeah, I really appreciate what you said because it’s really like you as a business owner, partner, you set the stage for the young people. If you have a good culture and motivate the young people, you’ll attract good people and good people will want to work for you. So no, I really appreciate your insights on that.
Aaron (26:54)
and
Yeah, I mean, it’s a huge factor, right? And, you know, we’ve noticed that and I’ve been, like, I’ve been fortunate, you know, I’ve had a lot of young lawyers and we, know, a lot of young students have come out from law school wanting to work with us, you know, saying, can I tell them a lot of times they’re like, no, we have one guy thinking of a particular, he sort of forced his way in and, he’s just been great, you know? And I thought, okay, the third or fourth time you reached out and then I said, well, okay, we’ll have lunch. And I met him and
I said, all right, we’ll bring you on and see what happens. know, but you have to admire that tenacity, right? And so I think, I think if you’ve got that, you can, you can achieve a lot. So I think just young lawyers go get it. Just, just young professionals go for it, man. Try the world’s there for you. But you’re right. I mean, we, it’s incumbent upon us to create that environment. And I think any, any lawyer, any professional, any, any individual look back and say, okay, what is it you want?
what kind of environment you want to create. For me, it was really simple. just said, what would I have wanted when I was coming through? And that’s what I tried to do. And part of it’s just being real with each other, but we’ve got a wonderful team, we’re dialed in and, and when you can do that, you know, guess what? Results happen. Yeah. So, yeah.
Mickey (28:23)
What are some complex or really interesting corporate or commercial cases that you’ve worked on that you can share with the listeners? Anything that comes to mind and you’re like, yeah, that was a fun one.
Aaron (28:38)
Yeah, there are certainly over the years. mean, I can’t name names, obviously, for confidentiality. but again, I mean, this comes back to what I’ve seen, you know, what were they? Well, okay, so earlier in my career, we were, this is a I loved it. mean, I just was immersed, we were called down to Halifax. I’m based out of New Brunswick, in Fredericton, New Brunswick. This time I was called in, I work for regional firm. So we were called in.
They booked, they flew lawyers in from all of the provinces. I it was probably a hundred or 150 of us. And they, we were, part of a large national transaction in the billion dollar range. And so our firm was on for the buyer and we were at the initial stages of it and they brought, it was a three week project. You know, I lived in a hotel. was billing, I don’t know, 20 hours a day for three weeks.
just completely exhausted, but also, you know, energized because you’re part of, you’re just part of this team. And I led a group, I led a group of, lawyers. It wasn’t climbers work, but we were doing lease review and lease reviews, I’m correct. but again, it comes back to what I said earlier and there, I always loved that file and I came home and I was completely exhausted and was, you know, my girlfriend now wife, but,
There’s another funny story. I won’t bore you with it. They came out of that whole session, but I came home just completely exhausted, but absolutely loved every second of it. You know, when I think about it, that’s kind of what led to those three pillars that I identified, which were, know, okay, why did I like that so much? I was doing, you know, I was obviously respected. They flew me in. was valued every penny in my time was, was billed and I was contributing and it was part of something.
So I thought, wow, maybe that’s the key, right? So in the team building exercise, those files really stuck out for me and it was a great opportunity for a young lawyer and I always enjoyed that one. More recently, I would say, again, I wanna be careful here. just, about a year and a half ago, we concluded quite a large transaction for a…
for one of our clients, transitioning them in the sale process and navigating them through that. And we ended up doing a structured management bio, which was incredible. Working with the CEO, working with their management team to contribute that. I think that one will always stick out for me. It was local in a sense. so a lot of jobs were, like really, a lot of jobs were at stake. And I feel good that we directed or assisted them to make some of the decisions they made.
I’ll forever be grateful for that opportunity. was just a very large file and working with their CEO, probably for the better part of a year, year and half on it. And, you know, and we’re still with that client and, know, they’re still here in the, in the Atlantic region and employing people as they should. It was, those are the ones I really enjoy those ones. But again, you know, respect value valued and being part of something. I just wanted to finish.
this one off because I think this one was important for me too. We do a lot of work for First Nations, some of the First Nations communities in New Brunswick. And that is some of the most rewarding work for me is because when we can assist them with their economic development work. And I’m not getting into the land claim. We don’t do that, but the economic development stuff where we’re assisting with efficient, you know, basically sustainability and moving them into the future. How rewarding is that? Right. You know,
It’s just fantastic. So I really enjoy that type of work. Again, where we’re making a difference. And I think as long as we can do that and hit those three pillars, if we can check those three boxes off the files, those are the memorable ones, right? I’ve got dozens of those I could speak to, but I think with most people, check those three boxes off and that’s what we’re looking for. You know, as hard as the work is, it doesn’t really matter. You can walk away and you’re feeling
you feel good about it and you feel energized about it and ready to take on the next one, right?
Mickey (32:54)
your cups full, so to speak.
Aaron (32:56)
Yeah, mean, as far as can be because it’s not always the case, right? no.
Mickey (33:01)
And that’s why we keep those cards on the desk.
Aaron (33:05)
Yeah, 100%.
Mickey (33:07)
Awesome.
You’ve answered this a little bit, but I’ll ask anyways. What advice would you give aspiring lawyers who want to specialize in corporate and
Aaron (33:18)
Yeah, I mean, I guess the first when you said what would you say to yourself? It’s a bit loaded there because I know what I’m like, but I think if I were talking to young lawyers today, know, okay, well, number one, corporate great field, you know, there’s demand, there’s a shortage of lawyers. So there’s a lot of opportunity there. But, know, really, if you don’t like it, don’t do it. And so try to figure out what you like or what you want to like.
or what you’re good at or want to be good at, and then go for it. know, get into a firm, I think is what I would say, is get into a firm and get with somebody that does this type of work and get exposed to it, figure out what it is. And if it’s not for you, don’t mess around because it’s hard. There’s no textbook that teaches you corporate law. So you don’t get into this field and sort of, you know how to say it, download it all and you’re an expert. It really is by osmosis.
So we’re learning, you learn on the job and you’re only really going to be as good as the people around you. So get a mentor. You know, I can’t say that one’s, but any, any lawyer, by the way, who’s good at their craft has had, you know, and I, I guarantee you this. You can pick any lawyer who’s at the top or near the top of their field. They’ve had excellent mentors period. And I mean the true mentors, not the box checking mentors, the true, I’m here to guide you. want you to be.
more successful than I was. I’m gonna give you all of my insights and I want you to be the greatest you can be. You need that. So if you’re struggling in a firm that doesn’t provide mentorship or guidance and you’re doing work that you don’t like and aren’t really good at, I would say get out, whatever that is. Go find the thing that you’re good at that you like to do. Get a mentor.
Yeah, I mean, you know, there’s lots of advice we can give, but I think, you know, the other thing that comes to mind honestly is like soft skills, you know, develop that because with AI, like, look, I mean, we can, can mechanize that out or we can automate most of the stuff we’re doing. Right. So like in the early days, like I said, at the start of our conversation, you know, we were, a lot of our time was photocopying and labels. Well, that’s gone now. Gone are the days where lawyers are going to be,
in a corner doing memos, research, that can be done easily through AI and through technology. It’s off skills. So, you know, I wrote a piece on this, but I thought it was, I thought it bears repeating here, you know, which was, you know, I had a young student who said, do I want to come work with you, you know, for the summer? He was, he was young in law school. And I said, don’t, it’s sort of counterintuitive, right? And he said, what do mean don’t? I want to, I want to learn. And I said, you need to learn.
Like what is your job history? You know, it was more academic and they had, which is great. mean, I’m not like all of these kids that are coming out, these young men and women are with top grades. But the thing that I think they’re missing is, you know, the retail sales. grew up, my family had a bicycle shop in, in Fredericton. So I grew up in that entrepreneurial background or environment. So we sold and bicycles and we, worked and so I, but I’ve always had a great admiration. And when I see.
some of the top lawyers in my firm, well guess what? They came out of retail, they were bartenders, they were waitresses, right? Where they learned those soft skills, dealing with difficult people. mean, anything harder than being a bartender or a waitress, right? I don’t know, I did it. You really learn how to multitask. I love seeing young men and women that have their own businesses. That’s great. If you can do that, they’re managing clients.
So think those soft skills are going to be in high, high demand as we move forward. Don’t underestimate that. think the young men and women coming out today should look to hone those and no better way to do it than in those sectors, in my view. 100%. Yeah.
Mickey (37:24)
Yeah, I agree with you.
You’re a registered trademark agent as well. How important is intellectual property protection for businesses today? I’m dealing with something I’m not going get into, but I want to ask that question.
Aaron (37:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, it’s huge, right? Whether you’re dealing with patents, copyrights or trademarks, if you, and I’ve felt this for a very, very long time. If your brand, if you’re working, if you’re in business and you value your brand and you value your image, well, protect it, right? And the way you protect it, of course, is through a trademark. So trademarks will protect, you know.
word marks and things like that. You know, think McDonald’s, the golden arches or the phrase I’m loving it are all detected through our trademark regime. So businesses really need to think about that. I think most people are tuned to that today in today’s environment. the cost, you know, the cost is prohibitive. It’s not a cheap exercise and it takes time. It takes a lot of time. So unfortunately for a lot of startups or young businesses that are, you know, in the, you know, if you’re struggling to put
keep the lights on, you know, getting a $5,000 bill from your trademark lawyer isn’t exactly, may not be the top priority. So it’s about balancing those. It’s a big, it’s a significant, I wouldn’t say it’s a major part of our practice. When we started doing trademark law, was, it was again, really to provide that service, that rounded out service to our clients that were in that space. And when we try to do it economically and in a way that makes sense for the client. we’re,
We’re happy to be in that space and I think it’s an important one. And again, lack of trademark agents. There’s not a lot of people out there doing it. So young lawyers out there, good area to get into.
Mickey (39:13)
Well, Seth, it’s one of my last questions and we’ve touched on it throughout the whole conversation. But what’s the most fulfilling aspects for you from a career perspective, from a family perspective as a lawyer, as a business owner? What are some of the most fulfilling aspects of all of
Aaron (39:33)
Well, I mean, I think, you know, glad you added family in there because, know, that’s number one in my world is, know, I’m, I’ve got a couple of kids now and they’re, you know, this has always been about them. You know, and I think if you focus it, you know, anything other than that, and you can lose your direction pretty quickly. So I’m pretty, I’m very grateful that I’m able to, you know, like my kids eat and they’ve got.
You know, they’ve got the things they need and they’re, well adjusted and I’m hard on them and all that stuff. So to me, that’s my, my greatest, probably my greatest achievement, right? Very, very, I mean, obviously professionally, I’m quite content. love my team. I love the, I love coming to work every day and just making the lawyers under that work with me. They’re better every day.
And I love seeing their success, whether it’s, you know, let’s some of them move on, right. And that’s okay. And I love, I love watching that, you know, man, if you can get a, have a, have a colleague that goes on to achieve great success and then sort of says thank you at the end of the day for, for allowing me to, for giving me the opportunity to work with you. It’s great. So I love that. Love building the team. but yeah, I mean, I think the reward is in the work.
And now we’ve talked about it. I think we’ve touched on it throughout is the recognition from the clients. You know, no question. I mean, when you get a good result, we celebrate that whether it’s down at the brewery or we have a little great little pub around the corner from us that we dropped in once in a while. And we recently we picked up, I call it, I don’t know what it is. They haven’t really named it yet, but we call it like a closing. It’s a gong. It’s a it’s a closing gong. So
Mickey (41:23)
have one too, that’s hilarious. I have a massive gong in the hallway, yeah.
Aaron (41:27)
No
kidding. Yeah. Okay. Wicked. So mine isn’t massive, but it’s, you know, and so we come out and if it’s worthy of celebrating, then man, you do it. And the office hears it. And so I that, that type of thing. So it’s, just having a little bit of fun along the way, but I think, I think you’ve got to slow down and look back and, I don’t tend to do that a great deal. Right. Cause I’m, I always tell my team, you know, the people around me and say, man, it’s
You know, what we did in the past, good, bad or ugly, doesn’t matter. It’s the next move that’s key. Don’t get too caught up in it, celebrate, but then move on. So I’m not, I don’t tend to dwell too much on the past, but it’s, it’s nice once in a while to look back and see how far I’ve come, you know, and I’m very grateful for that, but what’s the recipe? I don’t know. No, man, it’s just a combination of hard work, persistence.
willing to make mistakes, which I talk about that all the time, but you know, showing up consistently every day. And if you can do that, you know, and then I think something happens around the 15. I don’t know when it was, I saying this to someone the other day, I think it’s around the, maybe the 10 or 15 year mark in our profession. The first five years you’re just learning, the next five years you kind of get accustomed to it and you okay, you get your feet under you. you’re 10 years in 10 years to 15 years, you’re, you’re, you’re quite competent.
But I think when you get that 15 year mark, the magic, all of the things you’ve learned at all, it is a magic. I can’t explain it, but it comes together, coalesces in a way. If you’ve done the hard work that it achieves nice results. So it’s nice to look back and to see the path and knowing that it wasn’t easy. And that’s what I like about it. I think when I look back, said, man, this was challenging. It was hard. And I did it. But then I…
turn around and I see the mountain that I’m still climbing every day. And I’m just going to continue to do that. And hopefully I get to do it for many years.
Mickey (43:31)
That’s awesome. Well said. Aaron, thank you. Thank you so much for spending the time with us today. I really appreciate your insights and all the work that you put in. From our end, we’re going to be done here. Aaron’s profile for his LinkedIn and everything like that is going linked below. Make sure to give him a follow. if you’re interested, subscribe to the channel. And again, Aaron, thank you so much. I’m going to ask you to hang back after this, but I’m going to go ahead and end it.
Aaron (43:57)
Thanks Mickey, this is real.
